Two different views on Hell....

John Piper on Hell


NT Wright on Hell


You're response?

Eternal Judgement....

For further reading i’ve linked to two small essays that speak about some of the issues brought up in this last Sunday's message at
Jacob's Well, regarding Eternal Judgement:

General Rules for Mental Improvement
An essay that helps us develop the mind of a student and how to logically and reasonably look at issues of controversy.

Gehenna
A short paper that looks at the word Jesus used in his teaching on “Hell”.

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
-Jude 1:3

This week we taught on the Eternal Judgment (crf: Hebrews 6:12) based on these passages in Jude:

-1:4: "this condemnation"
-1:5: "subsequently destroyed" 
-1:6: "kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the Judgement day"
-1:7: "undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"
-1:11 “perished”
-1:13: "black darkness has been reserved forever"
-1:15: "to execute judgment upon all"
-1:23; "save other, snatching them out of the fire"

As a church, we teach from the Bible (primarily expository); and discipline ourselves to work at building our understanding of biblical truth from the whole counsel of God’s word. That means we stick to the passage and try not to bring arguments or controversies from outside the passage into the passage. We want the scripture to speak for itself.

The issue of Hell is a very important subject. Whenever you are dealing with the subject of people’s eternal destinations; you better handle it with fear and trembling. In this spirit I have chosen to maintain the solid ground on the issue that has been historically professed in the creeds, primarily the Apostle’s Creed and the Nicene Creed.

These documents, though not inspired, do historically represent the Christian churches agreement on what is considered of first importance regarding doctrine. In affirming the creeds, we stand on solid scriptural ground and yet, allow room for differences on secondary matters.

We aim at interpreting the unclear passages of scripture by the clear passages in matters of speculation.

These creeds affirm a “Resurrection, a Day of Judgement and Immortality or Eternal Life” and we feel this is a good middle ground to maintain. To go too far beyond these words leads one to eschatological speculation and the possibility of mishandling the character and purposes of God.

This theological navigational process has been succinctly summed up by two famous Christian theologians:

"In Essentials, unity.
In non-essentials, liberty.
In all things, love"        
-Augustine (354-430 AD)

“The faith preached by the Apostles, attested by the Martyrs,
embodied in the Creeds,
expounded by the Fathers.”
-C.S. Lewis

The Apostles creed: Appears to have been the general creed of the Christian Church, in a form very similar to that which it now bears, from the close of the second century. At that time and afterwards it served not only as a test of Christian doctrine, but was also used by catechists in training and instructing candidates for admission to the Church. The original germ of it is to be sought for in the baptismal confession made by converts in the reception of that rite. The primitive confession may have contained no more than “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” but we have evidence within the New Testament itself that it soon became enlarged. Paul speaks of the “form of teaching” delivered to converts (Romans 6:17), and reminds Timothy of “the good (beautiful) confession” he had made in sight of many witnesses (1 Timothy 6:12).

The Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,

the Maker of heaven and earth,

and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
 born of the virgin Mary,
    
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
    
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
    
the holy catholic church;
    
the communion of saints;
    
the forgiveness of sins;
    
the resurrection of the body;
    
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

You're going to Hell....

If all things shine upon my little path, while in Portland, I will make my annual visit to the Mecca of the Northwest and purchase Four Views On Hell and an arm full of other unpurchasable books in our bibliophile anemic area called Spokane.

C.S. Lewis on Hell...

I was reading about hell in chapter 8, in my copy of C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", it also reminded me of his book on heaven and hell called "The Great Divorce", which I also highly recommend. Below are a few selections from chapter 8, that I found good. The whole chapter is worth reading, I think it would be extremely helpful for anyone wrestling with the whole subject. Many people, both Christian or non-Christian, have an honest aversion to the doctrine of hell and have never truly heard much scriptural or philosophical discussion on the subject, Lewis is a great place to start.

"Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and specifically, of our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom, and it has the support of reason."

"Our Lord speaks of Hell under three symbols: first, that of punishment ('everlasting punishment' Matthew 25:46); second, that of destruction ('fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell' Matthew 10:28); and thirdly, that of privation, exclusion, or banishment into 'the darkness outside', as in the parables of the man without a wedding garment or of the wise and foolish virgins. The prevalent image of fire is significant because it combines the ideas of torment and destruction. Now it is quite certain that all these expressions are intended to suggest something unspeakably horrible, and any interpretation which does not face that fact is , I am afraid, out of the court from the beginning. But it is not necessary to concentrate on the images of torture to the exclusion of of those suggesting destruction and privation. What can that be whereof all three images are equally proper symbols? Destruction, we should naturally assume, means the unmaking , or cessation, of the destroyed. And people often talk as if the 'annihilation' of a soul were intrinsically possible. In all our experience, however, the destruction of one thing means the emergence of something else. Burn a log, and you have gases, heat and ash. To 'have been' a log means now being those three things. if souls can be destroyed, must there not be a state of 'having been' a human soul? And is not that, perhaps, the state which is equally well described as torment, destruction and privation? You will remember that in the parable, the saved go to a place prepared for them, while the damned go to a place never made for men at all. (Matt. 25:34,41).

"The demand that God should forgive such a man while he remains what he is, is based on a confusion between condoning and forgiving. to condone an evil is simply to ignore it, to treat it as if it were good. But forgiveness needs to be accepted as well as offered if it is to be complete; and a man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness."

From "The Problem of Pain"" chapter 8
You can also read his treatment of the subject of heaven and hell in his great little book, "The Great Divorce".

The grasp of grace...

"The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it." So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking. With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished. "When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful (compassionate) to them. As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!" -Genesis 19:13-17

I guess my 8 year old son was right...if we get caught in a burning house...God will come and take us by the hand and lead us out of the building. Amazing grace...how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. Indeed.

Burn in Hell...forever?

Hell has been a hot (no pun intended) topic in my recent conversations...specifically the doctrine of eternal torment. It's been good discussion and one that I have visited often coming from a Seventh Day Adventist upbringing. The SDA believe and teach the idea of eternal punishment and destruction vs eternal torture. A distinction that for many people is one that sounds heretical. I am not convinced either way completely...I do wrestle with the fact that eternal torture seems to be under supported in the whole counsel of the Word. It seems to contradict common sense logic about justice and is a doctrine that often repels people away from God instead of drawing them towards Him.

In my conversation the person said: "Eternal Torment was never taught in the old testament, The apostles never talked about it and the few scriptures where Jesus implies it come with no clarity; I think if a doctrine of this magnitude and horrific consequence were true, God would make it abundantly clear to all, and it would be a continuing theme throughout the Bible. On the other hand, eternal destruction is clearly taught and mentioned by all. The only exception is in Revelation where it appears to say Hell will be no more."

Good challenge...worthy of some good biblical study...I thought.

But then my youngest son, Micah came home distraught and angry Wednesday night from kids church. His first words to me were: "I'm pissed off, why would God kill Lots wife, just for looking back!" He was really upset. He told me that he wasn't going to believe in a God that kills people, that destroys huge cities. His little heart was broken and he was angry too. Every answer he recounted from the teachers of his class...he refuted and cast off with a disdain and frustration that they were not good enough answers according to him...which wasn't really the issue, our kids church is awesome and they were simply presenting a bible story; but Micah can grab a part of any talk and magnify it in his little mind. I tried to reason with him and explain the issues of choice, free will and all the other doctrinal anesthesia we use to try to soften a issue that we really can't explain either. I tried to use the concept of a parent telling a kid to stay out of the street for fear of getting hit or a command to come out of a burning building and if they didn't obey is the parent at fault? He responded: "Well Mom would come in an drag me out of the burning building!" I sat there stunned at his apologetic prowess that was really coming from a revelation of a side of God that frightened him and shook his understanding of a loving God.
We ended after talking some more with prayer. I told him I was proud that he cared about those people, cities and that we should love people. He calmed and I prayed with him about the issue. Needless to say, the hell, judgment and punishment doctrines are critical to understand because how we present our Father...can make some people stumble and even Jesus warned about the danger of making little ones stumble. It's a tough concept to wrestle with, one that trite answer dont really soothe the wounded heart.

I still am wrestling with the talk....the look and sound in Micah's face and voice was haunting.