"God makes it clear that there is nothing wrong, and everything right, about sex in marriage. Satan’s great strategy, when it comes to sex, is to do everything he can to encourage sex outside of marriage, and to discourage sex within marriage. It is an equal victory for Satan if he accomplishes either plan!"I am teaching/preaching through 1 Corinthians and I read this quote above, in David Guzik's commentary on chapter 7. According to this article, almost half of all women have sexual problems. Do you think that as a woman or man, you are adequately equipped (in all ways) to be the best lover you can be?
Where do you think an honest individual, struggling to be the most loving and serving of mates, should learn about this stuff?
Do you think the church should be involved in this day and age?
Do you think you were prepared to enter adulthood by your parents?
Do you think the internet is the best teacher?
Would you ever attend a "seminar or class" on such subjects?
Do you think Passion Parties have a place in the instructive role of equipping married people for healthy sexual lives?
20 comments:
Ummm... YES! The church should absolutely be involved in the topic of sexuality in this day and age. Isn't one of the church's functions to act as an agent and guardian of truth in a diseased and dying culture?
No, I'm not adequately equipped to be the best lover I can be.
I think the best place to learn about this stuff is in the safety of a loving Christian home and family. But if it doesn't happen there, which it largely doesn't, it must happen through the church, somehow. Maybe not from the Sunday morning pulpit always, but somehow.
I do not think the internet is the best teacher (!!!), and no, I wasn't prepared for this aspect of my life by my parents. I was taught mostly by romance novels and movies. Yikes.
I would be very eager to attend a class or seminar about it.
As to Passion Parties... I have no idea what that is. It sounds a little scary.
Thanks for asking! :)
Eric,
It didn't look like anyone was brave enough to answer these questions online but I see one person was so here I go.
Am I adequately epuipped to be the best lover you can be? Well, IMO each of us are created with the appropriate desires and needs to lead in that general direction. I believe it is the experiences and cultural attitudes we encounter as we develop that starts to damage that God given level of desire and need we have been given. Love- making as an act of service out of a deep commitment to your mate is an act of worship.
Where do you think an honest individual should learn this stuff? From a godly example set by parents would be ideal. In reality that doesn't even happen in most christian homes. The main message I grew up with was "sex is bad and those desires you have make you a sinner". So, as uncomfortable as this makes everyone there does need to be some forum to teach about what the bible says about a healthy sex life in marriage. I'm not sure an open forum is the way to go but that could just be my upbringing cutting through common sense.
Yes, I think the church should be involved in some way.
My parents did prepare me for making decisions that were based on the bible and principles therein. Did we ever sit down and have the "sex talk"......no way.
Funny story: At our church marriage shower when my wife and I were married, A woman in the church (who was known for having a warped sense of humor) gave me a pair of thong underwear that had an elephant face on the front and you were supposed to supply the trunk if you know what I mean. Well there were children present, so to kind of not make it a big deal, I hooked it over my ears and stuck my big nose out the trunk. My older sisters face blanched and she ran up and whispered in my ear that they were underwear, not a face mask. So that is definately evidence of how nieve she thought I should/would be.
No, the internet is not the best teacher for anything, let alone sexual topics.
Would I attend a "seminar" Probably not. This subject is one that I would not feel comfortable dealing with unless it was someone in whom I have a deep trust. I would certainly read a recommended book, listen to a seminar on tape perhaps?
Passion Parties......OK now I'm creeped out.
Hope this helps.
DJones
Ok, first of all "Passion Parties"...are a trademark, in home sex themed business. It's like Amway for the sexually savvy business minded lady. They are not an orgy or prostitution ring. :) Basically they would be same sex party where women are able to see, listen, look and discuss all things sexual with one of these distributers. All purchases are private. I'm surprised you all hadn't heard of these. They are designed to expose people to potential sexual aid without having to go to a porn shop, or get assaulted by lewd websites or shop workers or buyers...if you know what I mean.
Now I know the very mention of such things will get me in hot water but there you go, thats what those are. We talked one time about doing a Married Only Night: involving a Marriage seminar, a couples night out, locate it at a local hotel and as part of the package...we would have a Passion Party consultant host an optional same sex only, Passion Party for those so inclined.
My idea was shot down.
People get really weird about this kind of stuff, yet as pastors we deal with fumbling and crumbling marriages whose troubles have roots in sexual dysfunction, partner pleasuring ignorance, sexual selfishness, porn problems and scar tissue, broken mirrored self image problems (a problem where the woman can never see herself as beautiful) and other problems or hang ups or simply uncreative sexual or emotional monotony.
In a culture that is so "liberated" we have more carnage of brokenness and dysfunction than one could imagine. Much of it ties to the unbiblical paths most people take regarding sexuality. They end up "sinning against themselves" as Paul puts it and those sins, or wounds, end up causing sexual dissonance.
The challenges are that sermons are messages that end up going to too many ages. Some people are too young to hear, some are so old they dont care and others are so screwed up that merely mentioning sex...sends them into fantasy land and you end up sparking sin in the sermon! I had one teen girl go out and sleep with someone after one of my "Don't Do it" messages in a previous youth ministry...how about that for ministry fruit :(
But if you do a class...the people who need it or want it...wont usually come or they come with the wife bending the arm or with a "who cares" attitude.
Tough to deal with...I end up pushing the proper boundaries in order to get them while I have them. I figure its easier to apologize to the disturbed; in hopes of speaking to the need that is present but unspoken by most. In the end I get taken to task but the greater good is usually accomplished.
Most men wont "read a book" unless it has pictures.... :) but then I stimulate other issues. :/
DJones...I am stealing a quote out of your post for this weeks message: the "sex, serving and worship" quote was perfectly said...I will use that, good word.
Thanks for the clarification on passion parties. I guess it is an indicator of the (christian?)culture that any group discussion or instruction about sexual themes would send up such feelings. Please don't view my comment critically. It speaks more to my ingnorance on what is available out there as an effort to help struggling couples. Also, thanks for being willing to tackle the tough things in the Word as well as the "feel-good" things.
DJones
D,
No worries man, your post made me laugh..I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Same with you Mel...way to go sister...diving in and leading the discussion...you crack me up...no fear for sure!
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/11/13/jvm.issues.preaching.sex.cnn
I think the best place to learn is alone in the bathroom. Just kidding.
I thought we were only allowed to joke about these things in public.
I think I would have a tough time going to a passion party and hearing about other love hurdles or triumphs. No thanks for me.
Here is the link
Pastor Preaches Sex
Just what the subject needs, a video worth watching to the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og3YLkw6pGo
I HAVE heard of passion parties,and know what they are, although I have never been to one. I have several books on this subject, written by christians who do counseling in this and many other areas. Some even have drawings, so I guess I am more informed than some who wrote in on this topic. I DO NOT think that if there were any classes on this at all, that it should be a mixed class. So many have a really hard time talking about this kind of thing that it would be made even harder in that kind of environment, not to mention the ones who are having issues with pornography or other issues would now have more ammunition for their fantasies.....sad but true. I would like to heartily reccommend a website to all of you to check out on your own. It is run by Godly christians who are married, and talk about these issues. They each also send out daily tips to those who sign up. www.themarriagebed.com
It has their stories on the site too, some of you may find it helpful.
God bless you all on the journey.
sad to say, most of what i learned about sex i learned from years and years of pornography....
no, i am not recommending that!
no, i do not watch it now....
sad to say my father never even mentioned it...except, wait until you are married...
which i didn't do...
it certainly was never mentioned in the church.........
I echo Joey's comment to a point, My parents certainly didn't talk about sex, that was a taboo word in our home, in fact sex has become a joke now that us children are grown up and have kids of our own. Several of the many churches we went growing up were dying churches only because my parents were like the youngest ones there, and they certainly didn't talk about sex in fear of someone having a heart attack.
The point that I don't echo is the porn, I was sheltered from that even existing until I moved out of my parents house, and even after that I was too scared something bad would happen if I looked at it, so I tended to stay away from it.
Truely an eye opener to be a Jacob's Well, although I have matured alot since being exposed to a wonderful thing shared between 2 people that really love and care for each other.
Mary
Whew...nice string of comments!
The wife here. :)
First...DJones, I have given the elephant underwear gift a time or two myself. I know, I know...but, sometimes I purposely shatter the "Church Lady" image in order to loosen the gears of communication for future discussions. And with newly married couples, there will always be future discussions needed. Instead of pre-marriage counseling, I would like to start a new tradition of post-marriage counseling when a couple is acutally behind the wheel and driving together...if you know what I mean. THAT's where the questions begin..."how does this work...what does this button do?" LOL! Anywhooterville...
I think we should have an online education site for married couples where anonymously questions could be asked and discussed. I think this would offer education and privacy at the same time.
It's tragic how often simple answers help clear the clouds of confusion and de-mystify aspects of intimacy.
Yes...I'm one of those unconventional ones that speak facts - tastefully, of course. It's sad when young Christian brides to be have followed God and remained chaste, but don't know the first thing about driving the car, or even what their key is for. Dumb analogy, true story.
All that said - there has to be a line of respect and decency, which is why I will never use personal examples...never ever....never, never ever....and then after forever...never, ever ever.
LeeElla
(love you, babe - whoohoo!) ;)
As human beings there is no other part of us which we can become more deeply wounded than our sexuality.
In marriage, nothing can bring more healing and strengthening than restored, shared sexuality.
The church has the opportunity to impact married couples intimacy together and their sense of completeness both male and female, created in God's image.
If married Christian couples can clearly understand together God's vision for intimacy within marriage, the strength of the glue within that relationship becomes a wonderful picture of the relationship God desires to have with us.
So much of the message today has been skewed by the "dirtyness" represented within much of the modern church it's no wonder the rate of divorce within the body of today is so high.
When the church stops being afraid of losing people, stops worrying about offending, stops destroying the desires that God placed within each of us, I believe that divorce rates with decrease.
Maybe, JUST maybe, when the true message of the gospel begins to take root, the body of Christ will once again become the true example.
Within the message of the true Gospel is just that, the truths of intimacy within the covenants of marriage and the acts of worship that are pleasing to God in the marriage bed.
Okay, I can't help myself. I have to comment.
I don’t “get” any of this. What is the problem here. What do you talk about? Wife’s find out what he likes, get good at it, and give it to him. Husband’s find out what she likes, get good at it, and give it to her. Talk, teach, experiment, laugh, get creative, and enjoy one another.
Plan the meal: buy the ingredients, prepare it, present it, and eat it! Cook together. If it needs more pepper next time, add a little pepper.
Enjoy a 6 course gourmet dinner and sometimes settle for fast food.
TALK TO EACH OTHER! Learn from one another. The Church is not going to help you, and your parents were probably as screwed up and clueless as you are.
Oh Yeah, attend a pleasure party; get aroused; and go use your spouse to "get off". How sad.
Just my point of view.
Unfortunately you are probably somewhat correct - The church won't help you. At least in most circles, most churches, most holy huddles.
They typically serve to remove the true nature of the sexual being and replace it with a watered down, no passion, guilty for desire, testosterone draining doctrine that belittles men for the very nature which God created in them.
If it were as simple as talking or learning from each other there would not be the divorce rates which are higher in church than the secular world, there would not be unhappiness that the shopping cart of our culture presents to us each day.
The fact remains that SO many people are completely screwed up in this area.
Do you think the simple solution to a sexless relationship that is about to fall completely apart is fixed by talking to each other? I personally find it sad that so many children are in single parent, low income environments because the passion was gone, and they fell "out of love" because society taught them that there is beauty in many partners.
Society and culture taught them that if you get tired of your current sex partner, just go get another one.
It doesn't matter if you believe in a passion party, or you visit the local toy store and pick up a new toy to play with, or go to the lingerie section and pick out that one thing that brings a new level of excitement and fresh air to marriage bed - What matters is that you ARE TRYING to bring freshness to your intimacy without following the ways of our culture which dictate ANYTHING is ok.
If the church can't help restore the intimacy of relationships, than who should? TV? Movies? Books from the Christian book store on how to tear your eyes out?
I wonder how many fatherless children would be in more stable and loving environments if the church had the guts to stand up and help instead of run the other way for fear of losing people or speaking the taboo from the Charimatic pulpit.
I wonder how much talking with each other is going to heal the wounds of abuse that have tainted and made wary many men and women.
I wonder how many divorces might have been reconciled if the church was willing to present passion and desire as good and right instead of dirty and wrong.
Sorry - Don't mean to pick a fight, but just trying to discover what each other likes and doesn't like is not enough, especially when the sparks begin to fade due to life stress, experience, years of raising family, scratching and clawing to make ends meet, etc.
Rekindling the flames of passion within marriage is not simple when the hurts of this life have been allowed to divide.
Sex deprivation works negatively in both male and female -
For men the longer they go, the more they want it and eventually this can lead to sin in so many forms.
For women the longer they go, the less they want it. Their drive suffers greatly to the point that their passion for their partner becomes almost non existent. No amount of discussing what each other likes sexually is going to resolve these issues when the relationship has suffered that much.
If Christian counseling and the church itself contained a good dose of REAL sex education, of real passion ignition, of truth as it is presented in scripture, we wouldn't have the male weenies that fear going to hell for their desires, the women who are convinced that men are pigs, and the values of family and marriage might be restored.
Just my point of view...
Dear Jim.
Thank you for your heart felt and very honest comment. How my heart breaks for people. I did not mean to over simplify. I was speaking to people who may have missed the obvious, loving solution.
Even if the "church" taught all of this there would still be sexual disfunction. We are fallen, sinful creatures.
Most of us create our own misery or cause misery for others, don't we?
TruthMatters,
Agreed - reform of general teaching in this regard within the church would not be a blanket fix by any stretch, but I can't help but believe that given due diligence, we would see a decline in divorce and related issues.
I do believe that many in and out of the church do miss the obvious, either by lack of understanding of biblical truths or lack of desire to persevere through that misery they have helped to create.
Unfortunately, the diversity of painful experiences, coupled with cultural misguiding, fueled by societies never ending onslaught of worldly fantasies, offer satan many opportunities to steal, kill and destroy...
Pastor Eric, I hope you won't ever delete this post or any of the subsequent comments. I don't have time to read all of them right now, but there's a good deal of truth and thought-provoking material here. I want to have time to chew on it... :)
I rarely delete posts, unless they become counterproductive or full of ugliness. I'm usually a proponent of free comment posting but at times I debate the issue of "allowing" posts...it seems fairly totalitarian but I'm feeling more and more that way these days.
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