Personally...(and you may omit me because I now will most likely omit you) this rhetoric is exactly what messed us Jesus Freaks up in the 1st place...aww-I just won't take any real time here explaining the whole thing because your generation vs mine is so full of contempt anyway. Anguish yes...but for the poor, the hungry, the needing is the way and the truth. Get off yerself! I agree about the bastardizing of the church with "entertainment but if we go back to "shaming" ourselves then we lose the Message and become ineffective. This man who speaks..he is anguished and I hear him leading just off the path a bit. Good luck to you-God Bless. P ~
Hi Eric, Man! I love this mini sermon. I haven't heard anything this on target in a long time. The part that resonates within me is simply his subject of "anguish"; and his description of it - the sensing of the heart of God for someone or some cause, be it the orphan, the homeless, the widow, the lost. My impression of what he said is that until we grow in Christ and His concerns, we will be easily distracted by lesser issues. But when we truly hear His voice it will be for the oppressed in whatever form we become involved in. Prayer then becomes a union with the heart of God to go to the aid and ministry of those whom God puts on our hearts. Learning to love is learning to listen to the heart of God and I took this to be his main point. Their is a world of dreadful suffering and this is and has always been the ministry of God, either through the prophets or demonstrated by Christ. But we can become distracted by lesser things, even good things, and miss the heartbeat of God. So long as blood is shed, starvation persists, ignorance abounds, poverty of spirit and body continue, there will be a call to Christians to rise and serve. But we can reduce our faith to much less if we are not careful. His preaching hit the mark for me and was a strong exhortation to keep focused on mercy, justice and the love of God. Albeit somewhat harsh in delivery. Love Dad
I appreciate your comments and they reflect a side of religious and generational experience that I knew would be paigned by this video. I probably should of added the "why and what" of this video and message that I felt was prophetic. I think I leaned to heavily on the other content previously posted here to maybe add the counter-balance to the "Fundy/legalistic/angry" elements within David's message.
I sometimes forget that people who come here don't have a broader view of my general "truth" and "way" and "life"...and can get a skewed perception of who and what I am about. But I think if you peruse and glean and throw out the bones but keep the meat...you will see a more emerging and wholistic person who embraces what you just said.
But, that said...I still follow the Apostle's wisdom concerning: prophecy-teaching-preaching-writing-speaking-music-movies: "Do not despise prophecies, test all things and hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21
That verse puts the power into my hands not the "prophets". God speaks for me and to me...no one else speaks to me for God. That is the NT freedom. I am free to prayerfully engage any "message" and weigh it against Scripture, season and sanity. Sometimes its a word in season...sometimes its not...that's for the Spirit to determine.
There are moments and times in my life where one message would liberate and at other times it would kill. A scalpel in the hands on a toddler accomplishes evil...but in the hands of a surgeon...it can painfully save life. Both draw blood...one unto life...one unto death.
I see these messages and ministries in that light. That perspective is born out of a hard road of being raised in these types of religious circles and being one. David obviously has an axe to grind..and its in that whole Pentecostal "worldliness" zone that preaches hot but often feels like getting slapped with a sizzling frying pan instead of a coal from heaven's altar. I wish the messages could more easily be separated from the messengers...but alas, God hasn't made it so. And as a man who "speaks" so often...I know what I say...unfortunately. I can appreciate David and his history, messages and works. He is a saint that has earned my grace in hearing...even if I dont agree with him on many things. I am mature enough to "handle" him and even embrace what the Spirit says through him...to me.
God speaks through everyone...Donkey's we all have been and shall be. That doesn't excuse sin or religious extremism or legalism or outright sociological cultism..which I've experienced in all these circles...but it does help me move in grace and mercy; when while I'm sifting and straining...
(read comment number 2 for the rest of these thoughts)
I do cringe at one statement or more the "posture" you place yourself within...it's the "omit" thingy. In my generation (the one raised by you jesusy hippies) our parents "omitted" our families and ushered in a 'divorced generation'. So when you react to one thing...I knee-jerk off your reaction. :) Odd, isnt it, how we see through our own lens of experience? Now, without an intent to hurt you or hang you from the gallows, I would add a few from the gut remarks. I say these pointedly but with no desire to "get you" or any of that crap...just for dialogue sake. Which I realize you may or may not even desire....ah the nature of the internet...
I woul say.."Hey girl, what's up with dropping people simply because they say something you dont agree with. Isn't that a bit, irrational and immature? Do you do that with everyone in your life..."omitting" here and there, when people dont agree or handle your views or thoughts perfectly."
"Do you avoid conversation and challenging people on their views and run away and hide? Are you a chronic wound nursing type who lashes out but never sticks with the situation long enough to work it out?"
You see as a pastor of many in you're generation...that's exactly what I have and do see. Quitters, excusers, divorcers, abandoners, passive aggressive manipulators and masterful smokes screen producers....People who are more like skunks...they spray a cloud of impenetrable stink when people ever get to close.
Ouch...did I say all that...yep, I did...simply because I bear the wounds of it all and have earned the right to dig into the ugliness of it. Now more than likely you are just someone who has had the boot of religious zealotry placed on your tired and weary neck and never was able to live up to the anti-world rhetoric. If so...welcome to the club...ive given it and taken it and wish more times than I can count...that I could wipe it all away.
But even still...I embrace the generations of broken and healing religious extremists or recovering legalists, or gun-shy peepers, wallfowers and granola muching Love Song listening, give peace a chancers...or loud mouth preachers...on an on...we're all such a mess.
I hope you stick around and share your journey...it sounds like you have much wisdom.
I won't omit you...unless the skunk stink starts flying....
Dad, My sentiments exactly...I know not everyone can retell the same story of "anguish" but man....that's been my internal reality at many points.
I can remember powerful unleashings of God heart that have melted me in a mess of tears and deep groanings that have felt almost overwhelming.
I've wondered if that experience is common or if it reflects "called" folks or what...I rarely hear many people speak of it in a way that touched the smoldering depths of it, like David did.
Smoke and brimstone aside...he spoke from the furnace and I too have heard those words rumble out of the blackness of God. Justice is loud at times...its witness to the sufferings of humanity sometimes break out like a pent up summer thunderstorm...some people run and hide from the intensity of the heavens display...and some stand mesmerized by the power of it all.
To me compassion and justice sometimes need to burst out of the ground like a volcano...in those moments I stand in awe of the destruction and motivation of the raw emotion of it all.
Im not sure if anyone gets me on this but, nevertheless...I see love in the falling fires of justice. I see great energy that can come from the violent prophetic winds for those who can hoist the sails aright. Sure some ships and sailors are blown clean off the edge and into the dismal waters of misunderstanding...but even still...on she rages.
I am lured by the danger of His face...and yet, strangely unafraid too.
Mystery of all mysteries He is to me.
Oh, and sometimes I need a boot to my butt too...and his words about tv etc...helped me...even if it hurt a bit.
My first thought after seeing this video was "heartwrenching". But after having read the conversation here, my feelings are undefineable. Perhaps I am naive, or have been conditioned to legalism too long, but I did not feel the "guilt prophecy" here. Perhaps I do not understand the story behind the gentleman who spoke, but I felt deeply something I have felt for a long time. I alluded to it in my own blog, and perhaps this naievete led to the misunderstanding that ensued, but I do feel that people often turn away from pain and suffering. I do feel that we numb ourselves with television and internet. Anguish is a very good word for the condition we are all in. We all suffer. We are all born into pain. I too wish I could take back some of the things I have said. I like your idea, Eric, "a scalpel in a toddler's hand can maime or kill." Perhaps we are all but toddlers, and only the Master Surgeon is the one with the only skill to heal the wounds. We try to be like daddy, but our uncoordinated fingers and our simple minds only bring destruction. Well, I wasn't going to say that much, and perhaps I have said too much. I usually do, so I will leave it at that, and hope that I do not offend.
Having a good hearty laugh here with a bit of recoiling. I love the word "cringe" because the visual I get is a person squinting his eyes and stressing his shoulders up around his neck in retreat (the act of cringing [Old English cringe to yield in battle]. But what I hear in your rhetoric was a sincere reaching out to me and a strange welcome in the midst of what can be a very difficult discussion that most Christian men are not taken to hearing it delivered from a woman. Was that your "retreat"? Nah... just kidding. I think you covered most of what you needed to say about my "omit" and the whole discussion at large. "What's Up" with the "dropping people" births from my long experience of being a Christian and just simply attempting to converse about subjects, authors, culture, politics, music so on and so on... with other Christian people having them "dropping" either the conversation or even me. Especially in these last 2 decades of evangelical church pop-ups. Okay... so I will humbly get to the "chronic wound" that I do carry. I must reread CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" again (one of my great favs of his) to remind myself of the internal and external junk that keeps me from "getting close" and in your own metaphor "spraying skunk-stink" when confronted with opposition. Maybe I'm just getting old too and I have that attitude that barges through not taking the time to stop and heal the wounded myself. Earning the right to "dig in" is a great self-introspection of much experience. I take you at your word. No omit for now. I have turned around on my daily hiking path and am taking a good look, albeit, squinting my eyes and stressing my shoulders a bit back atcha. God bless you ~ P ~
Hi Redwoodgal, what a great word picture for a "handle". I went to your blog and read your account posted there. It was a heart wrenching account and situations like this leave us very cautious, and rightly so. As for me, I'm glad to read your thought provoking comments and hope to see you pop up often. God bless, Fred - Eric's dad.
9 comments:
Personally...(and you may omit me because I now will most likely omit you) this rhetoric is exactly what messed us Jesus Freaks up in the 1st place...aww-I just won't take any real time here explaining the whole thing because your generation vs mine is so full of contempt anyway. Anguish yes...but for the poor, the hungry, the needing is the way and the truth. Get off yerself! I agree about the bastardizing of the church with "entertainment but if we go back to "shaming" ourselves then we lose the Message and become ineffective. This man who speaks..he is anguished and I hear him leading just off the path a bit.
Good luck to you-God Bless.
P ~
Hi Eric,
Man! I love this mini sermon. I haven't heard anything this on target in a long time. The part that resonates within me is simply his subject of "anguish"; and his description of it - the sensing of the heart of God for someone or some cause, be it the orphan, the homeless, the widow, the lost. My impression of what he said is that until we grow in Christ and His concerns, we will be easily distracted by lesser issues. But when we truly hear His voice it will be for the oppressed in whatever form we become involved in. Prayer then becomes a union with the heart of God to go to the aid and ministry of those whom God puts on our hearts. Learning to love is learning to listen to the heart of God and I took this to be his main point. Their is a world of dreadful suffering and this is and has always been the ministry of God, either through the prophets or demonstrated by Christ. But we can become distracted by lesser things, even good things, and miss the heartbeat of God. So long as blood is shed, starvation persists, ignorance abounds, poverty of spirit and body continue, there will be a call to Christians to rise and serve. But we can reduce our faith to much less if we are not careful. His preaching hit the mark for me and was a strong exhortation to keep focused on mercy, justice and the love of God. Albeit somewhat harsh in delivery.
Love Dad
(Answer to Patti part one)
Patti,
I appreciate your comments and they reflect a side of religious and generational experience that I knew would be paigned by this video. I probably should of added the "why and what" of this video and message that I felt was prophetic. I think I leaned to heavily on the other content previously posted here to maybe add the counter-balance to the "Fundy/legalistic/angry" elements within David's message.
I sometimes forget that people who come here don't have a broader view of my general "truth" and "way" and "life"...and can get a skewed perception of who and what I am about. But I think if you peruse and glean and throw out the bones but keep the meat...you will see a more emerging and wholistic person who embraces what you just said.
But, that said...I still follow the Apostle's wisdom concerning: prophecy-teaching-preaching-writing-speaking-music-movies: "Do not despise prophecies, test all things and hold fast what is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21
That verse puts the power into my hands not the "prophets". God speaks for me and to me...no one else speaks to me for God. That is the NT freedom. I am free to prayerfully engage any "message" and weigh it against Scripture, season and sanity. Sometimes its a word in season...sometimes its not...that's for the Spirit to determine.
There are moments and times in my life where one message would liberate and at other times it would kill. A scalpel in the hands on a toddler accomplishes evil...but in the hands of a surgeon...it can painfully save life. Both draw blood...one unto life...one unto death.
I see these messages and ministries in that light. That perspective is born out of a hard road of being raised in these types of religious circles and being one. David obviously has an axe to grind..and its in that whole Pentecostal "worldliness" zone that preaches hot but often feels like getting slapped with a sizzling frying pan instead of a coal from heaven's altar. I wish the messages could more easily be separated from the messengers...but alas, God hasn't made it so. And as a man who "speaks" so often...I know what I say...unfortunately. I can appreciate David and his history, messages and works. He is a saint that has earned my grace in hearing...even if I dont agree with him on many things. I am mature enough to "handle" him and even embrace what the Spirit says through him...to me.
God speaks through everyone...Donkey's we all have been and shall be. That doesn't excuse sin or religious extremism or legalism or outright sociological cultism..which I've experienced in all these circles...but it does help me move in grace and mercy; when while I'm sifting and straining...
(read comment number 2 for the rest of these thoughts)
(Answer to Patti, part two)
I do cringe at one statement or more the "posture" you place yourself within...it's the "omit" thingy. In my generation (the one raised by you jesusy hippies) our parents "omitted" our families and ushered in a 'divorced generation'. So when you react to one thing...I knee-jerk off your reaction. :) Odd, isnt it, how we see through our own lens of experience? Now, without an intent to hurt you or hang you from the gallows, I would add a few from the gut remarks. I say these pointedly but with no desire to "get you" or any of that crap...just for dialogue sake. Which I realize you may or may not even desire....ah the nature of the internet...
I woul say.."Hey girl, what's up with dropping people simply because they say something you dont agree with. Isn't that a bit, irrational and immature? Do you do that with everyone in your life..."omitting" here and there, when people dont agree or handle your views or thoughts perfectly."
"Do you avoid conversation and challenging people on their views and run away and hide? Are you a chronic wound nursing type who lashes out but never sticks with the situation long enough to work it out?"
You see as a pastor of many in you're generation...that's exactly what I have and do see. Quitters, excusers, divorcers, abandoners, passive aggressive manipulators and masterful smokes screen producers....People who are more like skunks...they spray a cloud of impenetrable stink when people ever get to close.
Ouch...did I say all that...yep, I did...simply because I bear the wounds of it all and have earned the right to dig into the ugliness of it. Now more than likely you are just someone who has had the boot of religious zealotry placed on your tired and weary neck and never was able to live up to the anti-world rhetoric. If so...welcome to the club...ive given it and taken it and wish more times than I can count...that I could wipe it all away.
But even still...I embrace the generations of broken and healing religious extremists or recovering legalists, or gun-shy peepers, wallfowers and granola muching Love Song listening, give peace a chancers...or loud mouth preachers...on an on...we're all such a mess.
I hope you stick around and share your journey...it sounds like you have much wisdom.
I won't omit you...unless the skunk stink starts flying....
Dad,
My sentiments exactly...I know not everyone can retell the same story of "anguish" but man....that's been my internal reality at many points.
I can remember powerful unleashings of God heart that have melted me in a mess of tears and deep groanings that have felt almost overwhelming.
I've wondered if that experience is common or if it reflects "called" folks or what...I rarely hear many people speak of it in a way that touched the smoldering depths of it, like David did.
Smoke and brimstone aside...he spoke from the furnace and I too have heard those words rumble out of the blackness of God. Justice is loud at times...its witness to the sufferings of humanity sometimes break out like a pent up summer thunderstorm...some people run and hide from the intensity of the heavens display...and some stand mesmerized by the power of it all.
To me compassion and justice sometimes need to burst out of the ground like a volcano...in those moments I stand in awe of the destruction and motivation of the raw emotion of it all.
Im not sure if anyone gets me on this but, nevertheless...I see love in the falling fires of justice. I see great energy that can come from the violent prophetic winds for those who can hoist the sails aright. Sure some ships and sailors are blown clean off the edge and into the dismal waters of misunderstanding...but even still...on she rages.
I am lured by the danger of His face...and yet, strangely unafraid too.
Mystery of all mysteries He is to me.
Oh, and sometimes I need a boot to my butt too...and his words about tv etc...helped me...even if it hurt a bit.
My first thought after seeing this video was "heartwrenching". But after having read the conversation here, my feelings are undefineable. Perhaps I am naive, or have been conditioned to legalism too long, but I did not feel the "guilt prophecy" here. Perhaps I do not understand the story behind the gentleman who spoke, but I felt deeply something I have felt for a long time. I alluded to it in my own blog, and perhaps this naievete led to the misunderstanding that ensued, but I do feel that people often turn away from pain and suffering. I do feel that we numb ourselves with television and internet. Anguish is a very good word for the condition we are all in. We all suffer. We are all born into pain. I too wish I could take back some of the things I have said. I like your idea, Eric, "a scalpel in a toddler's hand can maime or kill." Perhaps we are all but toddlers, and only the Master Surgeon is the one with the only skill to heal the wounds. We try to be like daddy, but our uncoordinated fingers and our simple minds only bring destruction. Well, I wasn't going to say that much, and perhaps I have said too much. I usually do, so I will leave it at that, and hope that I do not offend.
Charity...speak your mind...you are not going to offend to easily around here.
Having a good hearty laugh here with a bit of recoiling. I love the word "cringe" because the visual I get is a person squinting his eyes and stressing his shoulders up around his neck in retreat (the act of cringing [Old English cringe to yield in battle]. But what I hear in your rhetoric was a sincere reaching out to me and a strange welcome in the midst of what can be a very difficult discussion that most Christian men are not taken to hearing it delivered from a woman. Was that your "retreat"? Nah... just kidding. I think you covered most of what you needed to say about my "omit" and the whole discussion at large.
"What's Up" with the "dropping people" births from my long experience of being a Christian and just simply attempting to converse about subjects, authors, culture, politics, music so on and so on... with other Christian people having them "dropping" either the conversation or even me. Especially in these last 2 decades of evangelical church pop-ups. Okay... so I will humbly get to the "chronic wound" that I do carry. I must reread CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" again (one of my great favs of his) to remind myself of the internal and external junk that keeps me from "getting close" and in your own metaphor "spraying skunk-stink" when confronted with opposition. Maybe I'm just getting old too and I have that attitude that barges through not taking the time to stop and heal the wounded myself.
Earning the right to "dig in" is a great self-introspection of much experience. I take you at your word. No omit for now. I have turned around on my daily hiking path and am taking a good look, albeit, squinting my eyes and stressing my shoulders a bit back atcha.
God bless you ~
P ~
Hi Redwoodgal, what a great word picture for a "handle". I went to your blog and read your account posted there. It was a heart wrenching account and situations like this leave us very cautious, and rightly so.
As for me, I'm glad to read your thought provoking comments and hope to see you pop up often.
God bless,
Fred - Eric's dad.
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