Ok, I know I get flak for not being a rousing endorser for the latest "Christian movies" that comes down the marketing pipeline...I mean I didn't see "The Passion" until more than a year or two after it came out...because I hate being manipulated into supporting things simply because they are "Christian". I'm crotchety and often fairly stringent when it comes to art, movies, music or literature being produced by "Churchianity". Maybe I've been too soaked in the culture to be able to appreciate the sanitized packaged, with "good for you inside" products that get pushed like sanctified crack by wide eyed fundamentalists that finally feel like they are sitting at the popular table because they got a semi-hollywood film showing. It just feels so desperate.
It might be my "indie" upbringing that exposed me to life on the margins where art was being produced for the love of it instead of the markability of it. Where music was played because it sounded good, grabbed your throat and kicked you in the groin with its message; all the while more content playing in a garage or showing on the internet than bowing to the powers that be.
It could be my individualistic North West nature, that would rather die in the woods alone; than get smothered by the masses at the latest Jesus Jolly fest.
Yes, I'm often to pagan for the Christians and to Christian for the pagans...and nowhere does it seem to feel more like gravel in my shoe than when it comes to movies. So I watched this preview at the request of someone who proclaimed it so much better than FireProof (which I have not seen) and after the trailer...I was left asking myself "If that was better than Fireproof...I rest my case." I am sure the producers of this film are great people..but I just wanted to mess up those kids hair! I'm just not living in that world...is anyone?
Maybe down in that "Bible Belt" place...what does that mean anyway? Does it refer to the extra large pants size of the Christians there...or that they are known for whipping their kids? But I digress....I simply can't get to jacked up about presentations about life that look more like Jehovah Witnesses oddly colored tracks than the families, neighborhoods and people I live with and around.
I'm really at a loss for words about this kinda stuff...
36 comments:
I remember feeling that way about “The Omega Code.” I wanted to like it, truly, sincerely wanted to. Especially after hearing all the good things people said about it. But I came away feeling like the little boy in “The Emperor’s New Clothes” stating the obvious, but instead of saying “But the emperor doesn’t have any clothes on!”, in my heart I was saying, “Doesn’t anyone see how badly this movie sucks?” But I didn’t say it out loud, of course, because I didn’t want to offend anyone.
However, that being said, I do think it’s worth noting that anything can be judged whether it’s good or not by it’s fruit. I personally know about 6 couples who were on the brink of divorce until they watched the movie “Fireproof” and embraced the messages of truth hidden therein.
Thousands of people have invested time, money, talent, skill, hard work, injury, blood, sweat, tears and prayers into these movies, and songs, and works of art, and tens of thousands more have been blessed by their efforts – whether we deem them as skillfully done or not. God moves in trillions of ways, and speaks the language of every soul on earth. Do we dishonor Him and them by bearing an attitude of criticism and judgment towards the expression of the vision He has placed in the hearts of these artists?
Criticism and judgment is what refined the art world. Constructive criticism is the goal. A task that most Christian media producers seem to ignore. Hiding art behind Jesus as an excuse for poor acting, weak writing, cheesy themes, sanitized subjects, inexperienced craftmanship, lack of natural talent or talent gained through disipline is good for the fridge but if you want to step into the public market place...You better be prepared for true critique.
I celebrate attempts, beginings, first steps etc but the craft has been suffering for a long time. Music is finally free from the ball and chain of flannel graph subjects only.
Judge in the manner in which you desire to be judged.
If I stink as a communicator and I'm unwilling to submitt my craft to the heat and fire of judgment; than I should not stand before people but blog with comments disabled.
We all are going to be judged, and His word and creation judge us now and tradition and history judge us.
What athlete Trains with no coach in his face? What game will he play and how well?
SIMPLY put, any artistic expression that moves people in such a way that their hearts are more open to God is good, and He rejoices over the creation of that "bad" film.
I hope that isn't the standard we teach people in their work life, marriage or school.
Pastor E, yes, constructive criticism is crucial if we’re going to grow and be perfected in our craft. In fact, it’s all the more precious because it’s so rarely given. I hope that at least one of the 20,000+ people who have read this blog is an artist who has been or will be captured and inspired by what you’ve written here, and that their skill will be honed for the better in some way because of it. I do so hope that we will be able to teach our children and inspire our friends and loved ones to aspire to excellence with passion in their lives, but to do so in such away that it doesn’t entirely consume them.
i went to Bible college with the guy who wrote the book for fireproof, so i rented that when it came to dvd...
very predictable...but not as bad as i thought it would be...
my wife loved it, lol.
some of the best movies ever have a subtle Christian message...the matrix, star wars..but i can't think of a really, really good independent film that really has a good Christian message...
fight club? :D
well, in some ways........
would be good if somebody made one....
Fireproof is a good movie. Yes the acting is not top notched. But the message is powerful. My sister and her hubby were in the verge of divorcing. And they watched this movie and it has caused them to seek and work out their marriage. It is a tool to touch marriages that are struggling. If you chose not to watch then so be it. I just know it is impacting lives and if it is moving people to hold together their marriage and making God first in it, then I pray for the ministry that is doing it!
Mary
oh and Eric you should really see it, before critiquing it!
You folks are missing the point of my post.
My post wasn't about Fireproof, but I will watch it and then be qualified to speak about it in my most Egbert like way. ;)
I do understand how the acting needs to be improved and we should want more and better. I do know that the Christian film industry does not make as much money to film it.
You know what is great with fireproof is it was only church actors besides Kurt Cameron. I think they did fairly good for not being professional actors.
I do understand your post, and do understand that just because someone says its a christian film does not mean it is. Same goes with people.
So I watched that clip you linked. Kind of like a sanitized version of "Stand By Me". I do understand what you're saying re: films that have the Christian label. I guess I view it (modern film) as being very difficult keep a cutting edge, current feel and have a strong or even subtle CHristian message at the same time. I have yet to see a flick that has both... the modern production elements of a Dark Knight or Forrest Gump (guilty pleasure, I know) mixed with a strong, spiritual message. I see a movie to be entertained... I read the Bible to be inspired in my daily walk with God. I'm still waiting to do both at the same time. Maybe I'm too cynical when it comes to Christian based movies? Maybe I keep waiting for the film makers "agenda" to reveal itself? A doubting Thomas I can sometimes(o.k., most of the time) be.
And Eric, crotchety is under-rated. Trust me on that one.
"Crotchety is under-rated" LOL!!!
Oh Wes, we miss your deep sage like wisdom around here...Boise doesn't know what has come hither....
:)
Okay, okay. This is my bread and butter. Well, it almost was. So I have a lot to say about it.
If a movie sucks, it sucks. It doesn't matter how good the themes are behind it because anybody watching it who aren't after the Easter egg message is going to miss it when they can't take their attention off of the car wreck of an acting job. I refer you to the Left Behind series of films. Even in my most fundamentalist glee, I still wanted to stab myself in the eyeballs when I saw that.
This can be extended to all forms of art. No, I do not believe God will honor art that is poorly crafted. If the best we as Christians can offer is sub-par, that doesn't make our Creator look good. I think for as many lives as, again, the Left Behind series (books or films) has touched, you'll find an equal amount of lives that have been negatively impacted by the white-washed sentimentality and piss poor theology that those tomes contain. They are really, really terrible. And I won't pass up the opportunity to let people know that. And I will take offense, as an artist, to them being labled as art.
I didn't even watch the preview for that movie Eric linked to. I was turned away by the music when I got to the website, and within the first 20 seconds of the preview, I left. It's bad art. It is bad art because it is dishonest. Like Eric said, nobody lives in that reality.
As far as spiritual themes in movies, where aren't you going to find spiritual themes in art that is ballsy enough to be honest? If Jesus is truth, and art is a reflection of truth, then logically you will find Jesus in well crafted art. Think broader. Fight Club talked about turning away from materialistic pursuits and enjoying the life you have as one of it's themes. Is this not Biblical? Westerns are full of men who have to choose between doing what is wrong and popular or doing what is right and possibly facing death for it. Where else have we heard that? War films are about sacrifice. Sci-fi is about seeing a grander scope of the universe. Even horror films can speak to the realities of demonic and unholy forces (The Exorcist anyone? Good heavens).
I usually walk away from films like Left Behind or Revelation or The Omega Code feeling unsatisfied. That does not reflect Jesus. And I will gladly offend and offer my most sincere critiques of these films. Because I honestly, truly, deeply want "Christian" art to be the best art. Not "as good as non-Christian art", or "a little better than non-Christian art". The best. In fact, I won't be satisfied until the day comes when we can stop calling it "Christian" art all together.
Anyhow. Sorry Eric if that got a little soap-boxy.
I find it incredibly challenging to discuss films with Christians whose view of film making is dimmed by the judgement shades. A judgement based solely on whether it is a "Christian" movie or not, AND ensuring the film is rated less than R.
That said it is even more difficult to hear and see fellow believers communicate idealistic praise for a "Christian" movie, yet not even be willing to entertain seeing a "secular" movie because Hollywood is not Holywood.
Many will tout concepts like "God can use anything" no matter how well its done, and God can move powerfully in peoples lives through this Christian movie or that Christian song, but are they willing to see God in the R rated Matrix? Can they watch the R rated Gran Torino by Clint Eastwood, and see Gods leading in it to touch a community, to give hope where people live, to encourage men to locate their tenders instead of hide or ignore? How many people get raped or killed daily because people are typically afraid to step in? Is it possible God could encourage men to be strong through an R rated secular movie like this?
Will there come a day when fundamental thinking will stop embracing the "Holy Huddle" approach that offers only sanitized, no bad words, no bad thoughts, no blood, no inappropriate behaviour, facing the giants themes?
Why do Christian film makers ONLY target Christians? Why do these faithful Jesus followers only cater to those already coming to church?
Most of the secular community will not go see Left behind, or Facing the Giants, or Fireproof, etc. because they know it is a Christian film, made by Christians, for Christians.
The world perceives these as yet another way for the corrupt church to obtain your money and shove Jesus down their throat.
To me, mature Christianity is able to see Christ is ALL things. And more than that, Christian maturity is able to see through a discerning lens.
The movie Crash, for example, is a GREAT movie. It deals with hard issues, right where we live, in our day to day lives. It gives us an excellent view of the irony that causes peoples lives to intersect in complicated ways that are filled with joy, sadness, depression to the point of suicide, lonliness, and so much more. Most Christians won't see it because it is rated R.
I have shared some testimony with regard the latest rendition of Rambo, RAMBO IV...Rated R, and probably the most violent movie I have ever seen. Many Christians have asked me how I can support it, speak about it, and recommend it to people. It has violence and rape, death and human slaughter, atrocities not often seen on the big screen. It has colorful dialogue with several "F" words, etc...
What many Christians DON'T know, is that Sylvester Stallone invested a great deal of his own money and time to make this movie, and he did it to raise awareness to the rest of the world. Awareness of the struggle in Myanmar, formerly known as Burma, recognized by the U.N. and the WORST PLACE on the planet for human atrocity, FAR worse than Darfur and the Sudan in Africa.
He did it so that people would know that the KaRen (pronounced Kuh Rin) people of Burma are being systematically slaughtered by their own government. He made the movie to show the horror that these people in south Asia are enduring, right now, even as I write this.
If we had more thinking Christians, and less Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil Christians, the world would have a better view of the Church and Christianity.
I understand this post was not about Fireproof, but it was about what it represents. It caters to that No Hear, No See, No Speak crowd and does little to further the kingdom.
I think it is powerful when people and lives are restored, marriages saved, families putting the pieces back together.
But WHEN is the Church going to get out their safe zone sanitized PG only thought process, and start witnessing to the crowd Jesus would have been with.
Christ WOULD be at the movies drawing the biggest crowds. Christ would be understanding what draws them in, and would be right there with them to look for God in it, because God IS in it, we just have to look for him...
I would encourage anyone interested to stop inspecting their fellow Christians DVD shelf, dig deeper than the Christian book store, further than the Disney rack, into the maturity of Christianity that embodies the power of theater in a way that speaks to EVERYONE, not just Christians.
the rating argument is funny, considering warriors in the old testament were fighting firsthand, which would have been rated NC-17 for violence. And, not to mention they were doing it. So I guess Moses was ungodly, because he exposed himself to reality!
Read Revelation (thats even new testament) and it mayyyy be rated R if youre lucky.
So, the rating thing is bogus in my opinion haha.
And I agree with Mike.
God gave us the ability to be artists, and he can speak through anything we do if its done well. I think the only people that are going to be watching this film and not cringe are already christians. So, your missional calling is kind of weak. The people I live in relationship with, christian and not christian, don't buy this kind of stuff. Their standard is so much higher than this kind of stuff, and they won't look past that. They know art for art.
So, with that said!
Fireproof may or may not be a God inspired film!
But I will not see it!
Becuase it has an agenda!
Its like the world weekly news, crafting a story to make a person think a certain way. That's not how we find Jesus.
I did love the Passion however. But that didnt have a sanitized agenda. The film looks sparkly to me, kind of a like a soap opera?
but idk.
i havent seen it true.
But the point is, people are going to be like me and stop right there. The non-christian community isnt going to take your word for it that its good. If the trailer looks bad, chances are the films bad. So, we have a problem here...
-Christian
mike said, "Fight Club talked about turning away from materialistic pursuits and enjoying the life you have as one of it's themes. Is this not Biblical?"
i was not kidding when i referred to fight club... the whole theme of shunning this materialistic world is more Biblical than anything made by the tbn camp...
and i agree with Christian that if the Bible were made into a movie, and followed the real script, it would be rated nc-17...
maybe mel gibson should make that movie?
i would sure see it.... :-)
I think the whole point is, if God is using Fireproof to help marriages, non believer or believers alike then I stand behind it!
The rest is purely opinion. I am also turned off by poor acting movies. Most Christian based movies are cheezy.
However there are some that have reached lives.
I think I see opinions spread around so much that a movie that could help someone see's the criticism so much from "Christians" that they will end up missing the movie and a possible chance for God to use it, to touch their lives.
If you are always pointing the bad in everything, then bad is all you will see.
I am thinking if God was going after popularity then he would have not died on the cross for us. God will reach people through movies and books and the list goes on..it doesn't have to be a box office popular actors (which you find very little popular Christ believers in Hollywood) to make movies. So good luck there!
My point is us Christians are finding it easier to be more critical of one another s work then praying blessing on it, and praying God will use it as a tool to touch a life. Its getting so much like the "Christians" are appearing to look like the world so much, that they have become like the world.
I am sick and tired of it myself. If Kirk Cameron looks like an idiot to you all because he is to nice looking, then oh the heck well. God is using him to touch lives. I personally believe in praying for him and the ministry he is doing.
Pray blessing and stop cursing is my motto..Get over it!
I am gonna hush for now and go onto touching lives, hopefully in a Godly way lololol
Joey, Hi! If Mel Gibson made a movie of the entire Bible story, and if he did so with the same quality, intensity, artistry, vision and monetary investment with which he made "The Passion," I would see it, too. Although, it would probably be about a week long... :)
Christian, I hear what you're saying. I love reading your comments. They’re few and far between, but when you post one—it’s like gold. But I have to say I disagree with the idea of dismissing something because it has an agenda.
What doesn’t have an agenda?
My life has and agenda (aka: purpose, goal, driving force), which is to give glory to God, to point to Him and make Him famous in any way He allows this feeble little life to do so.
Doesn’t Raw Nerve have an agenda? Certainly there’s a message in your music, it’s not just empty meaningless noise.
Whether you see Fireproof or not makes not one iota of difference to me, but if you’re not going to, I hope that its agenda won’t be the reason.
Wow, this is an unusual place I find myself.... I agree with all of you. I agree that God can use Christian movies, although most likely, struggling Christians may find help more so than non-Christians. But that's good.
Will I watch the movie, knowing Eric and having been disapointed with all but the Passion, I won't watch it. But there are many that will and many of those will get a blessing, and that may have more to do with my worldly heart than anything. That of course is impossible for me to judge because I love myself so much :)
I have seen people weep over things that I thought were so sappy I wanted to vomit, and I also have gotten blessings from things that others thought were profane. Go figger.
I think the longer you are a Christian the more you hope for.
But many are babes and need milk. There is no lack of milk, but like Eric, I would like to see some steak, thick and chewy. As we see and hear more and more movies, sermons and video, we naturally beome more discriminating, tis the natural evolution. My challenge is to become more discriminating but not lose my innocent appreciation.
Something like that.
Great comments,
Love Dad
Wow Eric, this topic has created quite the impassioned discussion. You may as well have lamented the feminine bent within most worship and the emasculization of the church...oh wait, you've done that already! (sorry bro, couldn't resist :) Many of my feelings on the topic have been said better in other comments than I could probably articulate myself, but here's a couple different thoughts... Maybe the message isn't the issue, but perhaps the choice of medium. For me, good art causes the listener/viewer to interpret for themselves on some level. I'm not doubting that myself and many other men could benefit from a few pointers on how to better love & cherish our wives, but I could easily go to a Focus on the Family seminar if I wanted it spelled out to me. I think this is what Christian meant by agenda. You go to that seminar knowing what the intended result will be and the message you will hear. With art, much of the beauty is the subjective interpretation it allows and even requires. Most (not all) "Christian" movies are for the most part biblically sound, but that doesn't make them good art, or art at all for that matter. Many are tri-fold pamphlets narrated by second rate actors. I love how movies like Braveheart challenge me to love with passion and sacrifice without the actor saying, "Dan, this is how to love with more passion and sacrifice." That's art, and it speaks to each person uniquely. It's difficult to find more than one interpretation of the typical "Christian" movie. Why do we struggle so much within the body of Christ to trust the Holy Spirit? We too often default to overt messages because we don't trust God to use good art to say what only he could say in a way only he could say it, to the person who needs it, by the power of his Spirt. I'm not saying that overtly sharing the message of Christ doesn't have it's place and that the Spirit wouldn't lead us to do so, but it can be arrogant to assume that we can always say it better than the beauty of I Am expressed in wonderous and mysterious ways through true art.
-Dan
Ok, Mary...this line made me laugh:
"... If Kirk Cameron looks like an idiot to you all because he is to nice looking, then oh the heck well. God is using him to touch lives."
Did I miss the Kirk is a hottie comment some where? LOL.
Sorry that line just seems so funny to me...if the discussion here somehow got reduced to how good looking Kirk Cameron is...shoot me in the noggin....please. :)
hey hey now...Glad to humor you.
Joey, I was totally with you on the Fight Club thing. Sorry if that came across differently.
And what Dan said. Jim too. Also Christian. Good stuff right there.
Don't get me started on the ratings system.
Jim,
You said if Christ was here he would be drawing crowds and would know how to "bring them in".
This film was the highest grossing independant film of 2008. it sold more tickets than Slumdog Millionaire.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100927647
Considering that they did it with an all volunteer cast of no-name actors and very limited budget perhaps Christ had something to do with it. It goes to show that you don't have to have rape and choppin off heads to "bring em in."
This movie has had a wider appeal than just to the Christians who have marriages that are failing.
-Paul Bonner
Amen Paul
Ticket sales do not account for popularity or good craftsmanship. Were those tickets purchased by individual non-Christians? Or are we talking church groups that packed out theaters? Christian movies generally have very high ticket sales because churches encourage their congregations to "win one for the team". The fact that if you were to ask anybody on the street, they still wouldn't know what Fireproof is.
Also, their profits are going to be naturally inflated due to the fact that they were made for nothing, and have free publicity through TBN and churches.
This was even true of Passion of the Christ, which is an outstanding film.
Also, Fireproof has not made more than Slumdog Millionare. It only had a bigger opening weekend. Slumdog, in half the time of Fireproof, has grossed $88 million dollars in the US (and it has an international audience) while Fireproof has only grossed $33 million on only a domestic release. Impressive, but not astounding.
Remember, the point isn't whether or not these movies are good for you...but if they're just good quality. These may be the former, but they are not the latter.
Paul -
I did not say Jesus would be drawing the crowds. I said He would be at the movies that are drawing the biggest crowds. I said he would be trying to understand what draws them in.
Now its the same old argument - You don't need rape and murder to draw them in? really??? Are you sure thats true?
Because I see a whole world of people out there, turned OFF by the church and their fundamentalism. Turned AWAY from their message because they are tired of turn or burn evangelism model.
I see scores of men out there who absolutelty LOVE action movies. These movies often include these scenes that legalistic Christianity will never see.
WHERE in the bible do you read that Jesus stayed away from where the sinners were? How can one compare money changing in the temple to seeing an R rated movie?
Can you not see that a movie like Rambo, that has caused the world to sit up and take notice, that has helped facilitate 1000's of refugees rescue who would have otherwise been systematically slaughtered, AFTER their children were raped, burned by flame throwers, or beheaded slowly so their parents could watch?
Where is the RAH RAH for the films that serve the least of these? The films that show the reality of REAL poverty and war throughout the 3rd world?
Where is the 4 square movie night that is appealing to the body to help rescue the suffering, starving, genocide plagued world?
Why do you think Christ was called a drunkard? Guilty by association? Yep!
So how did the message of Gospel get so sanitized and cheapened that we don't even see Christ anymore? We can see the next bible study, the next seminar, the next small group get together to discuss the new Fireproof.
How come we can't see the suffering and dying and realize that THOSE messages ARE JUST as important to Christ. That HE IS concerned about them, and HE IS in the works when Stallone is making a film that is going to help do something that even our own government is too afraid to do.
I am sure of one thing, Christ IS all in all. He IS the representation of the finished work that we enjoy. The grace we live in is not about do whatever you want, see whatever you want. It is about hitting the pavement, getting down where the rubber meets the road. Getting your hands dirty, to love on and care for the least of these.
If we Christians believe what we say, then we know Christ is there, in all of it, using it and furthering HIS kingdom through it.
For those who think the only good message is a sanitized one, I would challenge them to evaluate their relationship with Christ.
He was the Word made flesh and he lived in and among the ones no one else wanted.
What Jim said. Again.
Whoa.
You know what your blog is, Pastor? It's a gathering place. :)
I have one more thing to say about the movie thing. There is value in the "bad art," even if it's only this: It serves to magnify the good stuff. Just like black velvet sets off the brilliance of a diamond, and a bad day makes the good days all the more sweet... If we see a movie or read a book that serves instills a craving for something more... God will birth miracles out of that craving. And that's a good thing.
"God will birth miracles out of that craving." Amen to that.
So I was sent on a mission from Joy tonight to rent a "romantic" movie for us to watch. Ugh. I picked one that at a glance in Hastings looked to fit the bill. Boy was I pleasently surprised when we watched it. I had never heard of it. "Henry Poole was here" is it's name. In my opinion, God laid one on me. It's a movie of faith lost & perhaps regained without an "in your face" message... but a strong message nonetheless. Great acting, great writing, a movie that makes you think.
At least, that's my opinion. I encourage any of you check it out.
Funny how God works sometimes.
I agree with the shortcomings that have been pointed out concerning Christian films. I want to see films with a Christ-centered message competing well with their secular counterparts. The primary problem is not enough people watch enough Christian movies to generate enough money to improve the industry. Even the best Christian movies like Fireproof, Jonathan Sperry, etc are made with a tiny fraction of even the low-budget mainstream movies. How can this problem be fixed, so we can produce Christ-centered movies that are worthy, and get God's truth out to the millions who hunger for it?
Ray,
Thanks for stopping in and commenting.
I think putting money into endeavors like the ones you mentioned is part of the answer if one is inclined to support such movies.
But the over arching issue for some like myself is centered in the idea of secular vs sacred dualism. It's a bigger subject rooted in the greek ideas of the nature of reality vs a Hebrew idea of reality.
One is dualistic, it separates reality into distinct groups...one is "world" centered and the other is "sprit" centered. This idea grows into branches of thinking that go from orthodox to heretical. Gnosticism is a prime example of this thinking that soon evolves to a outright denial of Jesus even living in real, human flesh...because of the idea that flesh is unholy and therefore unable to be something God would inhabit.
This line of thinking is seen in many fundamentalist leaning groups. Do not touch, taste and experience is often at the heart of this doctrine.
This is the root of many problems with espousing a christian subculture that pumps out "christian" versions of "secular" things.
Instead of creating art...it becomes a work of agenda driven propaganda.
Christ centered whatever could mean anything since according to scripture: In Him we move, live and have our being and in Him all things hold together, He is before all things and in Him all things find their meaning.
That is a very broad place to create from...it releases artists to explore, try, experiment and be free to move in and out and around subjects from different angels,,,not just head on.
But...this thinking is what sparked so much confusion and debate here on this subject...it seems to be a wavelength that many just dont agree with or understand.
Post a Comment